Gospel-Centered Pro-Life Podcast
Gospel-Centered Pro-Life Podcast

Episode 6 · 2 years ago

Abolitionist or Pro-Life, Which One is Biblical?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There has been some controversy within the ranks of those who stand against abortion. There are those who claim to be pro-life and those who think the pro-life movement has compromised the truth and needs to embrace an abolitionist philosophy. In this episode Cities4Life director, Daniel Parks, talks with local abolitionist, Carl Turnmire, about the differences between the pro-life movement and the abolitionist movement.  

www.charlotte.cities4life.org  

http://abolishabortionnc.com 

www.sidewalks4life.com 

I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me, Lord, I am yours. Welcome to Gospel Center pro life and this episode we're going to talk to abolitionist Carl Turnmeyer. We're going to ask the question abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? Stay tuned. I felt show passish touch your heart. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate all those who are watching or listening. The question that we're asking in this podcast is abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? And it's not really to say that that neither one or both are biblical or ones more biblical than the other. We're just talking through this thing because it's a question a lot of people have, and so I have with me today Carl Turnmeier, who is an abolitionist, who's with I don't know. Ah is not necessarily an organization you say you're under, but people have the the AH a philosophy, and so I wanted to just kind of share Carl real quick, if you can, sort of maybe a summary of what what you see. And it's not a monolithic group. There's a bunch of different abolitionists and people that they are part of Aj and whatnot who have different, varying beliefs about abolition and that sort of thing. But from your perspective, what is the abolishes philosophy? Well, first let me just say that, you know, I've been involved in this since the late S, okay, my first introduction to preborn murder. I tend to use that as opposed to the euphemism of abortion. Yeah, sure, because that's the reality of what we're talking about. Yeah, was when my wife and I were thinking that she was pregnant and I was in college and we went to a clinic to do a pregnancy test and we found out that she was pregnant. Yeah, and they offered to provide us with an abortion. Wow, and I grew up, you know, I'm fifty years old. Grew up in a different generation than today, certainly, and I was a I was up the belief that, you know, a woman who's pregnant is pregnant with a human child. If she give your time, she's going to deliver a baby. Yeah, that was my baby. Yeah, and and that you do what's right. Yeah, and so I was shocked by that option, that opportunity that they were presenting to us, and my wife was also shocked by it. That was our first introduction to this and so I from that day a forward, my wife and I got involved and everything that we could. Regarding pro life, because we are for life. Yeah, and I think that along with the euphemism of abortion comes the terminologies around what we're talking about, prolife and abolition. Can I say that I'm prolife? Absolutely. Would you say your prolife? Absolutely, because we are for life, we won't. We think life is something that God has has given and it's of him, and so, you know, we are for that. God wants us to be for that. As far as abolition goes, in this day abolition has a primary focus on doing a way with the practice preborn murder. Yeah, but abolition as it really a mindset or ideology, or spirit, if you will, that has been around eternally. Yeah, Christ came to abolish the works of the devil. So, yeah, abolition. That word abolish is a scriptural word, and so and you and you see coming through history, biblical history, of the the prophets and the things that we're going on with the Kings, when they were godly men, men of God, they abolished the wicked sins that were going on in the culture. Yes, you like. They tore down the high places. They, you know, they destroyed idols, and one of those idols was a idol that children were sacrificed to. Yeah, Molich. Yeah, right. So that a butt, that that ideology or that philosophy or that spirit what has always been around. It's a in Christ being the eternal son of God, in the eternal word of God. Having demonstrated that and spoken that through his word shows us that that is an eternal sort of work. Yeah, God's doing. Okay, abolition in my mind is first of all, it's Gospel Centered, Gospel Focus, because, apart from changing the souls of human beings, there's no way that that preborn murder will will never be unconsionable. Yeah, until you have a change of soul,...

...mind, will, emotions and deeds, then abortion will not be done away with. Yeah, that's the key, is to change their hearts and souls and minds. Yeah, I just had a conversation today. I was talking to one of the pro choice, I put it in quotes because it's really pro abortion ladies out in front of the abortion clinic and and she was talking about and I was talking about this very subject. She was talking about US limiting abortions and how we want to limit woman's right to choose. I'm like, well, actually want to limit abortions. I want it to be illegal, like completely illegal, to have an abortion. And she was like, well, you know, if you, if you do that, women are going to have illegal abortions. Some people have a illegal abortions now, like they still do that. And you don't take a moral evil that I believe abortion to be and in legalize it to make it safe or to make it look better. It's like it's it's wrong. It's like slavery, he which is where the abolition is exact lot of the language comes from. You know, you don't make slavery legal so that it's so you're able to regulate it better. It's a moral evil. People still own slaves now in the city Charlotte, as a matter of fact, like number, like I don't know what number four or five, and sex trafficking in the nation. And so, yeah, so speaks the kind of what you're saying, that today there's more slavery going on in the world than her has ever been in history. Yeah, so we abolish slavery, but yet slavery still occurs. Does that mean that we were we were we failed or that we were wrong? Absolutely not. We did exactly what should have been done. Yeah, that is was a moral evil that should have been abolished and we did it. And yet wicked evil people still seein and bring yeah, break the law and do criminal things. It's just like murder is abolished in the sense that it is highly illegal. Yeah, and yet people in Charlotte, you know, highest more murders I've already occurred this year and then last year. Yeah, you know, it's not the highest year in history, but you know, yeah, it does. You're speaking to really kind of the really the focus of this podcast, which we're talking about Gospel centered pro life. Like we started out the first podcast we did, we we talked about what it means to be Gospel centered in pro life, and there's pro life ministries and organizations that are out there that, you know, come at it from maybe a philosophical standpoint, which, you know, philosophy certainly is great and all of that, and I don't downplay that, but if we're not focused in the Gospel, like you're saying, if the Gospel isn't the key isn't the focus, then the human heart isn't changed and abortion is still kind of an option. They are. So, yeah, you're speaking, you're speaking my language rather. Absolutely, Gospel Changes and there for the Gospel to be the center with that means that the scripture has got to be yeah, you know, a major key to doing it, because that's where you find the Gospel. And so we take the full Gospel, we don't truncate it, we don't aggregate it, we give everything that got that Christ presented. That that the the whole Scriptures present in the Gospel. But we also take into count the whole council of scripture, because we don't discount the the way the that God spoke to his people there, the way that God work through his people or the way that God uses his people, whether it was Old Testament and New Testament or today. Yeah, so the whole council of Scripture has got to come into play as we reach people with the Gospel and then we disciple them through the Gospel into becoming full, you know, mature believers. Yeah, that's got to be done through the whole council of Scripture. Yeah, well, speak real quick if you if you can again, this is not, you know, this is not a debate format. We're debating about this thing. I personally as as a dude that just loves Jesus and loves people and things. Abortion is evil. I say I'm prolife because I'm for life, and people know what you're saying. You say your prolife. Oh you're against abortion. Yeah, I'm contended to be called anti abortion, like I'm anti slavery, I'm Antisex, draffing him, I'm anti drug addiction, anti for an occasion. So I'm content. But so just a regular dude like myself who's not, you know, maybe necessarily in the abolitionist camp, but probably agree with a lot of the tenants of abolition. Speak a little bit, if you can, about the differences between pro life and abolition, like why you personally wouldn't say I'm part of the pro life move right. Well, like I said before, and sharing my personal testimony, was that when my wife and I started early, you know, thirty years ago, working for for life, the avenue that we took, which was pretty kind of the only available avenue, and me not being a mature believer at the time, just being introduced into, you know, living the Christian life. Yeah, that...

...was pro life. Was the movement that you only came in town. Maybe. Yeah. So I spent at least a decade working in and every facet that I could in the pro life movement. You know, certainly in my church, in the community, being involved on the board of directors at my local Pregnacy Care Center, counseling, you know, marching, being in the streets, raising money, leading my church to go and be involved, speaking to other churches, other pastors. So you know, I kind of run the gamut of of pro life work. And at the end of the day, at the end of the decade, I was disappointed. Yeah, I was frustrated because I didn't see the fruit, I guess, and there the results. And then I started thinking what's going on here? And and when you when you try to figure out, after you've invested a decade into doing something, what's going on, you got to back up. You got to back up not only the decade that you've been going on, but before that, what was going on? Where did I come in and what was going on before I came in? And so I started backing up and I backed up to Rov Wade and I backed up to the early nineteen century. And and so I started and then I started studying about abolition. And when you go through the history of abolition, not only do you find it in the scriptures, and I was certainly studying the scriptures as well as I could, and I was seeing these people, you know, fighting and speaking out a proclaiming the word of God against, you know, being against the evil and wicked in the world. And and so that was an inspiration for me to find out. You know, how do you how do you do that today with this evil? Yeah, and and obviously the correlations between this evil of the humanization of the preborn matches a lot of the dehumanization that was going on with slavery. Yes, sure, and abolitionists were there. And so you run that thing up to those early abolitionist British abolitionist, early American abolitionists, and you study those guys, Wilberforce and garrison and and those guys, and you see what was going on and you read the things that they said, the things that they did. Powerful now from me, and that made an impact that they were hated. Yeah, and you know, Jesus said, if the world loves you, better take a look at the right yeah, they're going to hate you the same way they hated me and they certainly hated these guys, and these guys were certainly Christians and Biblical. And so I found a lot of passion and compassion and inspiration through those early abolitionists that inspired me to being abolitionists. Yeah, but you when you went through a minute ago talking about being anti and being proud of that, and I appreciate that because I'm anti too. Yeah, and one of the things that I found to be a difference between prolife and abolitionist is that today in my community with the pro life folks, when I have spoken to them and said anything about abortion being murder or being an abolitionist and being against abortion, I've been reprimanding. Okay, yeah, as being anti, you know, abortion. We don't want to be anti abortion, we want to be prolife. Yeah, and and so the one of the things about pro life movement is I think that they want to be so positive that they waiver on the truth sometimes or they compromise for the positivity of being pro life, which what we were talking earlier before the program the justification that that can sometimes present to people who are abortion or murder minded. Yeah, when we're soft on that or when we're positive, that takes the edge off of the reality of what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, so that's one. Just one thing. Yeah, one of the other biggest things for me is the meet the immediate call for abolition to accolish and we're to getting get around it. It is it. That's kind of the some of the tension. It's like it is mediatism versus incrementalism. So, yeah, and so so. So to clarify that one a little bit, is what I like to think of is I when we talk a about immediate we are talking about it's sort of like a decision for Christ.

When I'm sharing the Gospel with you or I'm leading a person to Christ, I lead everybody to Christ. Yeah, they where do they choose? Right, it is there, you know, on them. But you lead everybody to Christ. And what is your desire? That today is the day of salvation. You want that immediate decision, that immediate change of mind, that immediate newness of life, Spirit field, salvation, justification on the spot. Yeah, and so that's the way I picture abolition as we want the immediate end to this evil sin. There's no compromise with it. It's pure evil, wicked and we want an immediately into it and that takes steps, which sounds like incrementalism, right, yeah, but incrementalism tends to be okay all along the way and abolition is never okay all along the way, because we wanted the mediate end. We're always set, you know, our we're star, our focus is set like flint to that immediate, yeah, end, and so anything that that takes the edge off of that immediate, you know, impact is is hard for us to swallow. It's yeah, it seems a little bit like compromise. And so then then you start getting into all the details of that and you could chase a thousand realities. Yeah, on the details, but but the the easiest details are the incremental legislation that's going on shore for Life Movement for decades. Yeah. Well, like we talked about, like you said before the program we're talking a little bit about the politics of abortion and how a lot of of the political system, you know, a lot of these prolife I say that in quotes, politicians are basically, you just playing on people sensitivities to get votes and in store that becomes a problem. Yeah, huge problem for me. This again, just a just a regular dude who thinks Jesus is awesome and loves people and hates abortion. But to me, when I see legislation, which I you know, I've heard the debates, have listened to some debates between the abolitionist and prolife people about that incrementalism when legislation pass. He did some legislation, I think it's two thousand and thirteen here North Carolina, where they said basically, you know, a woman has to be given the ultrasound, she has to be able to see the ultrasound. And then they did a twenty week band and you know, we're people rejoicing over that. I was like yeah, I guess, Praise God. You know, it's a band. If I'm a baby at twenty one weeks, my mom walks into it them. I'll look at it from love your neighbor. This baby's my neighbor. If I'm a baby that's twenty one weeks, my mom walks into an abortion clinic and because of the twenty one week or twenty week ban, she can't kill me, I'm going to be happy for that legislation. The problem, I think, comes in again just looking at it from a practical perspective. The problem of it comes in if we're able to settle, and a lot of people are like we won some kind of victory because we have a twenty week ban or or whatever we might have. We have a partial birth abortion band and we want some kind of victory. I'm like, well, if that's how we're going to view it, if we're going to think, think that we can go take a breath because we got this incremental thing, I don't think so, guys. We got to press into this time. We gotta see if we believe abortion is murder, and I do. We need to see this thing completely legal right. But I am I'm sort of okay with incremental bands on abortion, like the the fetal heartbeat bills and things like that in Alabama. I don't find myself being like saddened by that because I'm thinking, okay, Mama's are not going to be able to kill their babies past six weeks and I'm happy. So tell me why I'm wrong and can and don't you know, don't don't hold backkause, because I'm not. I want to be corrected. I want to be consistent with the Bible, absolutely and and that is the word. Brother, you hit the nail on the head without me even having to say a word. Is Consistency. So for me and you, we both love God and we hate seeing murder of babies. To be fully consistent, we have to hate all of that. Yeah, the thing I see with legislation, whether it's a twenty week band heartbeat bill, you know, obviously the I mean we've got a group of politicians out there now, just like I was sharing with the earlier about the democratic debates, who don't even bother anymore. Yeah, because they're so gone. It's a settled issue. We can practically, you know, unless that baby's walking out of the building, we can kill it. Yeah, you know, I mean they're that's how far they've come. So that that's a bizarre, crazy...

...mind set for me. But but getting back to, you know, the the legislation. A lot of this legislation is almost impossible to enforce. Yeah, not only that, is it puts a lot of the decisionmaking in the hands of the very people who are committing the murders now and have been for decades. Yeah, not good people. Right, murders, liars, steelers, cheats, you know, lustful, corrupt everything you can label them. That's where they are and we cannot trust those people. And by that you mean like the people who run the abortion absolutely, yeah, the abortionist, the ultrasound technicians, all those people that are going on in there. So, so what has really impressed me of recent years is some of these abolitionist who have gone and testified before local councils, have testified in court situations, who have testified in other areas that they have shared then their expertise and their experience the the shortcomings of some of these legislations. Yeah, one being the heartbeat bill, and Sarah Cleveland is an abolitionist and she's very seen her own face because she has done some very good interviews and testimonies regarding this, her skill set and how easily a heartbeat bill can be avoided and being yeah, be you know, gone around. Yeah, and and so the consistency is so hard to maintain in a legislation that has exceptions and compromise built in to it. Yeah, it, I mean, I say so hard, I think it's impossible. Quite honestly, yeah, I think you cannot be consistent with abolition or the ending of in the hatred of the sin of murder if you celebrate as a victory the legislation that has compromise and loopholes. Yeah, speak right. Yeah, I mean you have a you have, you know, like I mentioned earlier, in North Carolina we had, believe it's two thousand and thirteen, the women's right to no act, which you said that the woman was supposed to see the ultrasound or at least given the opportunity to see the ultra sounder for baby. There was information that from the state that she had to have about the risks of abortion and fetal development and stuff like that. There's a seventy two hour waiting period and and then the twenty week ban, I think, was wrap. That could be kind of conflating things, I think maybe, but there was a right away. There was a judge, because when I heard about the ultrasound thing, I'm like, okay, we know the ultrasound does give a window to the womb and it does save lives. Again, we'd have to trust the abortion clinic is actually going to do it. They are supposed to do but that got thrown out anyway. That got thrown out by some judge and Greensboro like right away, and then the information that's given to them as their counseling. I'm like, okay, so we we're going to believe this abortion clinic is actually going to give them the proper information. And actually we found out they can just call up on the phone and that's how they get their counsels. Are Recording or whatever. But the twenty week band, to me it was like, okay, if babies are saved from that, you know, I'm happy for I'm sort of like people ask me about politics, I'm like the the go to ask your questions about abortion guy, because I'm in front of an abortion clinic on a regular basis and a lot of times I'm sort of embarrassed because, you know what, I don't really know to about all this stuff. Nashally. All I know is I'm called to be a witness for these babies at the abortion clinics and ask people to come over and talk with me and convince them not to kill her babies. So when I hear stuff I hear like like heartbeat bills and stuff like that, I you know, I'm not not down about it. One of the things that does trouble me and I think we and this is sort of like, you know, I absolutely agree with this. Are The exceptions? A matter of fact, it seems like often times, and that's what happened with Rov Wade, is the exceptions become the rule. Yes, right, so the rape exception, the incest exception and the health of the mother is like wow, okay, do we really believe that this is a baby? And even if it's a baby, even if it's a person that was conceived in rape, there's no difference between that baby as far as value is concerned or any other thing concerned is concerned. Then a baby, he was not conceived in rape. So those exceptions certainly do cause me concerned. I'm like, well, this is, you know, these are again loopholes. Like I said, yeah, the exceptions are there. In on one hand they're clear, HMM, clearly wrong. On the other...

...hand we're talking about tragic, horrific circumstances, because it then the reality of that. So rape, if a woman's rape, that's a horrible scene. Oh yeah, committed against her, incest, horrible sin committed against her. And certainly there are health conditions and medical conditions where women are vulnerable and pregnancy's not a you know it, although it's normal, some things it's very difficult. I grew up on a farm, birth and cows and horses and goats and you know all that, and so it's a and I you know, I saw my own children. But yeah, so the animal kingdom moves into the human so it is a there's loss of blood, there's there's all kinds of things that going on. Their pain that you know, that can be a scary situation and medical situation. So on the one hand that they're clear that they're wrong and all the other hand they are things that can be manipulated and used to justify. Yeah, and so we have to again be consistent that there is no justification for this, and sometimes that can come off, you know, kind of hard. One of the things, you know, you mentioned about several times now about just being a regular guy. I'm so we have I'm a regular guy to did you? I'm not a I'm not a professional, I'm not a historian, I'm not a you know anything, just a guy loves Jesus and and a guy that hates sin of murder. And so I don't have all the answers, you know, and I don't know how you, you know, walk a woman through some of these harsh situations. But but I know that we cannot allow the rarity and the exception to be the rule and we've got to make sure that we do everything we can according to the Scriptures and according to the love of God and the compassion of God and the care that God would would offer to those exceptional cases. Yeah, and I think that's where we fall short sometimes, and I know you guys do a great job at that, with the care and compassion that you show the ladies on the sidewalks and walk and giving them the opportunity to have an ultrasound and to see the baby and not be manipulated like they would be if there was a requirement in the clinic to do an ultrasound where they could hide the heartbeat, they could hide the end edge or they could tell them some sort of deceptive lie that their child is deformed or something. You guys are kind and compassionate and loving and, you know, graceful and merciful and you bring them in there and you show them picture and you talk sweetly to him and and those things are impactful and they they exhibit Christlikeness to those women and that's a drawl God, the spirit of God uses that. Yeah, and one other thing is that, although we're highly opposed to the exceptions and to the compromising legislation, I know from my own testimony and personal experience and from the word of God that God causes all things to work together for good. Yeah, things that are absolutely atrociously evil, wicked, sinful that that man does, God will work those things out for those who love him are call according his purposes. So you let a woman and you've talked with them. I've talked with them. They have done murder, they have committeth murder, murdered their preborn children, some of them numerous times. Yeah, theyk find forgiveness, yeah, in Christ. They find new life in Gris. Actually just had a moment today, who God calls peoples and clinic. Yeah, God caused that horrible sin of murder and we work, we transition from the horrible seeing and compromising legislation to the actual carrying out of that. God can cause good to come out of that in the salvation of that mother or future children or a husband or a relative or whatever. And I'm not, you know, don't you know, Miss Construe what I'm saying. I'M NOT JUSTIFYING RIGHT IN AL along the way, because we talked about that over there. There is no justification and we got to be really that's a delicate thing that that we, you know, kind of dance around sometimes or have to maneuver through in order to not, you know, be justifying in our thoughts and our words or presentation to someone else to allow them to justify.

Yeah. So, yeah, just sharing. We had today mom who came to the abortion center and she was on her fourth abortion. She had three prior abortions. Now she was under heavy pressure from the boyfriend, who was a good guy except for the four babies he wanted to murder, three that it already murdered. She came, thankfully, came on board the mobultry sound unit and and Vicky and the other counselors showed her babies fifteen weeks. She could see clearly little baby's feets and feet and she's like, you know, in all of the same and ultimately she came under conviction. They share the Gospel. We do sort of the way of the Master Ray Comfort. When shared the law, we lay it on them heavy and they see their sin. It's like, well, Jesus needs to be Lord of your life. This is not just the thing you do on Sunday. You need to surrender your life to cheese. And she did and now she's, you know, working through and now she's empowered to go speak to that boyfriend and be like, you know, I'm not doing this. She didn't want to. I was on the streets of Ashville a week or so ago and I had a lady and her friend approached me and I was holding my sign, graphic image sign, and she she had mixed feelings about what I was doing. She was pro life. She was a counselor post abortive counselor, because she had had four abortions. Yeah, and she that was very think first things out of her mouth when she approached me was I've had four abortions and now I'm forgiven. I'm a Christian and I'm counseling women who are post abortive and, you know, trying to prevent them, you know, from doing abortion abortions. But I am unsure about your methods. Yeah, what you're doing out here holding a sign, and you know what your friend is doing, preaching so loud and you know, yeah, the Gospel, and you know some other things that he's say and you know the law. Yeah, and I'm thinking, I understand, you know, this image juice graphic and it is graphic to me and it disturbs me because it's the reality. Yeah, and what happens in Ashville, what happens in Charlotte, what happens in my city of Hickory, where there's is no abortion clinic? Is that out of sight, out of mind? Yeah, and and we've, you know, we've spent decades out of sight, out of mind, and and we're getting into a time that we were seeing clinics close. And, YEP, we're seeing new, bigger ones being built, but we're seeing a lot of clothes and we're seeing maybe a drop at times in numbers of statistics. are numbers that are kept. Yeah, we get access to murders that are committed, but you know, we're we're getting in a delicate, a tricky situation, because the science is allowing these women to murder their children much easier. Yeah, at home or in a hotel room or, you know, these peels that they can take that yeah, that you know. And so we've the the issue of the Gospel and the Scriptures and the the immediate decisionmaking and and the assistance that you provide a great deal of and that that it's necessary, and and the agitation of showing the world what's going on, just like they showed the world slavery. Yeah, showed the world the holocaust of the Jews. The world has got to see this and face it and in order to honestly praise you know where they are? Yeah, I know some of the you know, I actually try to stay as much as I can away from the back and forth on facebook and social media and all the stuff, because I see, you know, I see abolitionist folks argue with pro life folks and prolife folks argue with each other and a Ja or abolition its folks argue other. It's like, man, there's a lot argue going on and like man, I just I deal with like contention every day right out in front of an abortion clink. I got want to deal with it on social media as I sort of stay out of it. But some of the contention I see is kind of around methodology, which is, you know, using victims of abortion, which we actually we do use victim of abortion images. We don't use them as much as we used to because we find that our interactions are more hostile. So we want to have interactions where we're actually can have a conversation with somebody strategic with it, and I think you guys are, because I think that when I've been with you on the street and I brought my,...

...you know, graphic image, I stand there with my image. I don't have a whole lot of interaction with the actual girls they're going in or women that are going in you, and but they everybody sees my sign. Yeah, I have some interaction with the you know, people who are evil and wicked and want to, you know, scream at me and curse me or mock me. But, but, but do you guys have the images? But you have them their strategically located and sometimes there with somebody who's doing basically the same thing I'm doing, which is exposing the evil. But you have other people that are strategically located, that don't have the graphic image, that are with you. Okay, so you got both sides covered. You're exposing the evil and you're also, with this person, providing the opportunity to talk and minister and share the Gospel and offer assistance and you know all those other things. And so they see that guy with the sign and they may be a little taken back by that or reject it, but they don't reject her. Yeah, her, you know, comforting words or, you know, call to talk. So you're really good at that. Okay. And and those are things that we talk about as abolitionist when we meet. Is Strategy. Yeah, we've got to be wise, you know, and we got to be nice. But why? Why is the service and Genie? So I don't want use the word gentle now. Yeah, but we've got to we got to be you know. Yeah, all in all, when we when it comes to that. And so we talked about those things. So when we go out, we kind of try to have the thing covered, our basis covered when we go to you know, that's why it's better the more you people you have with you, the more those things. When we talked about some of the other ministries that are involved in pro life that you know, they don't engage. They may have a worship service or they may do praying or they may sing or whatever, but they don't engage. Well, that's okay. I know that when I've been on the sidewalk and I'm engaging and I'm one of a few and I'm out numbered twenty two one by the other side. And you know, and that in the spiritual warfare is already going on. Yeah, more some people. Yeah, and it's dark and it's horrible in the enemies there, you know. And so, and then all of a sudden you got a group of thirty hundred people from the church coming down the street singing and praising the Lord and preaching or or praying or given testimony. That's an encouragement. Yeah, you know, and it tends to shut down the you know, the Voice of the Inn, I mean. Yeah, so, so those things are necessary and are good. We just can't we've got to be consistent. I think that the consistency needs to be with them, with us and us with them, you know. And and whatever area you're in, whether your sidewalk counseling or you're showing a graphic image or you're preaching, you know, Street preaching the Gospel, or if you're singing and worshiping. We those things need to be covered and we need to be consistent and we need to be together. Yeah, and you know, the the body of Christ, which is another part of abolition, and I know it's part of your heart, pro life, whatever you want to call it. The body of Christ is the driving force, so to speak. It's the spirit filled human you know that. That is the body of Christ that is pushing this power to overcome the evil that's that's in front of us. So that guy over there who doesn't engage, only sings, or that guy over there that's on his knees praying his heart out, shedding tears, weeping, or the guy that's over here preaching the Gospel and get letting them have it, but the guy standing over here, Havn't with the sign, not saying a word, the exposing the evil, or the sweetheart setting over here saying mother, please let me talk to you, let me help you, let me share with you what I'm willing to do. Every one of those people are my brothers and sisters. Yeah, and we have got to be together. Yeah, I have no animosity. I've never had any animosity toward you. I've always had the utmost respect for you and your faithfulness and service, and and yet we have our differences. We've talked about them. Right now. Yeah, that's okay, man. I want to do that, but if you need me, you call me. If you say Carl Dana, pay down here, come hold your sign. I'm on there, you know. And and if I needed you to come speak...

...to a group that you know, you would come. Yeah, so that that is an important thing. And so I agree with you on some of the social media kind of stuff. As at as an abolitionist, I could have plenty of conflict. All how it does up my mouth or hold my side sometime. Don't have to my mouth, just almost side and I get plenty of conflict. I don't have to go searching for it and I don't have to show up at every argument that's out there. I do, I like to debate, you know, and stuff like that, but at the same time I try to keep in mind you're talking to a brother in Christ here, and you have the spirit of God living you in mind of Christ, and you don't no longer recognize people as their flesh. You recognize them according to the spirit of God, and so you really need to be mindful of that when you're debating and and, you know, hashing out some of these differences. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, the body of Christ working together. Let me stare one thing. Yeah, before we move forward, you mentioned at the outset abolitionists, pro life, Aja Osa, there's there's all kinds of groups out there that are that are everywhere in the spectrum of abolitionist to pro life, whether you're consistent or inconsistent, how far apart you are. There's everything and everybody in between there. I'm I'm somewhere in between there. Yeah, okay. I know a lot of the guys in Aha. I know that some a lot of the guys in Osa. I know you. I know the guys in Love Life Charlotte. I mean there's all kinds of stuff going on that where Christians are involved. We consider ourselves abolish abortion North Carolina, okay, and so we don't we don't want to be labeled or tagged to the point that, you know, we're having to be contentious or were having to constantly defend things and answer questions about things that we haven't a focus and a heart and a drive toward what's going on right here in our backyard in North Carolina, and that is to abolish preborn murder here. Yeah, and I don't want to be distracted with constant, you know, bickering or dissension within the rank, so to speak. We're certainly willing to talk and have these discussions about differences or whatever, or methods and all those things. But we so we just, you know, we're abolition of society. We have the state covered. We have people from Ashville to Ashe County, to my area of Hickory, to Thomasville, Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh, Jacksonville. So we're from the coast to the central to the mountains and and we're a rag tag, you know, Motley crew of abolitionist and that's okay. Yeah, you know, and one of the things I appreciate about you is your faithfulness and being here in Charlotte, in a in a central location for so long, you know, seventeen years of ministry here, and and what's going on with with Love Life Charlotte to a degree that we're this area is an exceptional area in the sense that I hear a lot from whether it's pro life or abolitionists around the country, that it's a ghost town outside of clinics and meals and yeah, in other parts of the country and their begging and other parts of the world they're begging for other people to just show up. Yeah, and so one of the things that we talked about earlier was if you're begging and you're wanting, people will just to show up. When they show up, don't go nitpicking, you know. Yeah, what they're what they're doing. Necessarily, they showed up. Yeah, you know, give them a chance. One of the things I shared with you is that, you know, we nippick a certain church that may show up outside the clinic because we've seen their bumper sticker inside the parking lot, and then the next week another church comes down the street and the first thing goes through your mind is, Oh Gosh, another bunch of them. Yeah, you know, and you turn around and it's the people from your own church ry. Yeah, you know, God will put a check on you real quick if you don't keep those kind of things, you know, in in perspective. So that's you know, and I don't I'm not I don't want to think, I don't want you to think that I'm being selfish by coming here today, but one of the things that I really value about our time together is that I get an opportunity to share with the group and the people that you know and the people that are listening to this podcast or viewing this podcast, abolition. Yeah, that's all I want to do. Yeah, there it is. If you got more questions, go to abolsh...

...abortion North Carolinecom and find your answers. Yeah, or, you know, contact us and ask us. I'm not out here to steal your people. I'm not trying to infiltrate your group. I'm not trying to down you know, downgrade anything you've ever done or what other people are doing. I'm simply presenting abolition and and I'm want to stick to the tenants and I want to do it by assistance with your exceptional at and I'm good at agitation. Yeah, I like holding my sign and if somebody wants to talk, I'll be glad to talk. And however you want to come at me, you know I'll try to be as gentle as I can, but I'm not going to compromise and I'm going to be consistent with the law enough in the faith. Yeah. So, yeah, that's good. I appreciate you coming, man, because I think this is again a question that people have. People that are that are brand new into prolife or abolitionist stuff. I think need to hear the conversation like this and need to understand sort of why these issues are important, and I think a conversation like this sort of takes away some of the the contention that can be there and some of the bad view either way. Right, right, you know the bad view. The pro life people are all like this, or they abolitionist people are all like this, and no matter what you know, this is. I know that you're not speaking speaking for everyone who's an age a person or we claim to be an abolitionist. I'm certainly not speaking for everybody that would claim to be prolife or whatever. Not a monolithic group either way. Right. Ultimately, though, what it comes down to is the Gospel being the center of the thing. Anything we do, we I say it and I'll say it again. I spoke with the church just the other night, with their evangelism team. I said, listen, if we're doing anything that is good, that's not reclaim in the Gospel, it's just a humanitarian effort. Right, humanitarian efforts are good. That's fine. Do Humanitarian Efforts, but if you're going to claim to be Gospel censored, that Gospel has to be a part of what you're doing, or else it's just a humanitarian effort. Jesus didn't say that that he's gonna build his humanitarian effort that's about to tell people Jesus didn't say that I'm going to build my prolife movement. Now he says I'm going to build my church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it's not. The gates of hell won't prevail against the abolitionist or the pro life people or the Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah whatever. The gates of hell do not prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ and ultimately, what it's about, the true body of Christ bring in the Gospel, and so I appreciate that that perspective from you. Appreciate you. You coming and talking and I can't. God never said I could. He can and he always said he would. Yeah, this ain't about me and you and it ain't about anybody else that we can lay our eyes on. I learned a long time ago, and discipleship and counseling, been involved in that for twenty years, one on one, and you know, groups and couples and all those kind of things, is that you've got to deal with the soul that's right in front of you. Yeah, and it's not about you and not necessarily about them. It's about him. Yeah, and when Christ is the central thing, the Gospel, which is found in the word of God, stick to the truth, stick to the Gospel, God will, will carry out his word, will not come back board. His spirit is not incapable. Yeah, all power, all ability, all work is done in Christ. And and that's how you change the world. Yeah, that's how he changed the world. That's how he commissioned US and commanded us to go out and do the same thing. Amen. Amen, I appreciate it. But I appreciate you talking, man, and you're what's the website? Now? Abolish abortion North Carolina. Okay, abolish abortion North Carolina. And if somebody goes on that website, is there like a contact thing so they can cheat every email? They should be able to and they should also be able to sign our petition. We didn't get into a whole lot of stuff like that, but you know you, I've seen you guys down at the city council meeting. We've got to be out there, we got to got to take advantage of every thing that that is set before us to make a difference and bring the Gospel to the community. So City Councils, your local legislators, your local, local communities, churches, legislators, you know, state capitals, anything that you can do to present the message, petitions, whatever you can do. Get out there and do it. Show up, speak up, you know. Yeah, do the work of abolition. Yeah, okay, so that. Yeah, so connect with with Carl on their website, abolish aboard or in see our North Carolinacom, and then our website is Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org, and they we also have a national website that we mentioned often, which is sidewalks for life, so I walks the number four, and Lifecom, which is an equipping website, which is basically, Hey, we've learned and we've learned...

...a lot. We've made a lot of mistakes and so I will counseling. Here's the stuff that we've learned since just information out there to quit people, to bring the Gospel to the abortion center. So those who are who are listening, those who are watching, you can go to there. You can connect with Carl their website. We appreciate you, guys, and just pray that you're blessed by listening to this podcast and if you have a question about this podcast or anything for me, Daniel Parks or d parks. Sorry, at cities, the number four and lifecom. You can shoot me over an email. Be certainly willing to connect you with Carl if maybe you need to be connected with him or you have any questions. But we appreciate all those who watch and listen. Thanks and God blessed. Use, MIL use, give me my life, but now things too precious.

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